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FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4
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Author:  mk e [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

cribbj wrote:
Dynoing the engine is still a long ways off but a couple of suggestions:

......
There's just too many variables and unknowns to risk putting all this together initially and hoping for the best.


I'm not sure is I posted this or not but its on my mind and fits this theme......no doing first starts alone anymore.

There is just way too much going on with the first few start-ups for me to keep it all straight and keep an eye on everything....when the day comes I think I really need to a second set of hands and eyes on site. I'll need to get that figured out in the next few weeks.

Author:  cribbj [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

mk e wrote:
I'm not sure is I posted this or not but its on my mind and fits this theme......no doing first starts alone anymore.

There is just way too much going on with the first few start-ups for me to keep it all straight and keep an eye on everything....when the day comes I think I really need to a second set of hands and eyes on site. I'll need to get that figured out in the next few weeks.


Whenever we did a break in run for a freshly built Lexus V8 we did it with a known good 4bbl carb and a Ford EDIS8 firing COP's. No ECU's at all. You probably don't have the option of carbs for your break in, but a pair of EDIS6's might be an option if you have multiple crank pickups on the Frankenferrari? I really like the EDIS ignitions - they may be dumb as rocks, but they're as reliable as you can get. You can either run the EDIS modules standalone with fixed 10 degrees BTDC timing, or you can use an external controller like the Megajolt if you want to give it adjustable timing.

We would have at least 3 guys (plus usually several spectators) when we dynoed:

1. The dyno operator would be at the dyno control console and would be responsible for starting/stopping the engine (normally), running the dyno & loading the engine during the heat runs.

2. I would be in the dyno room and I'd prelube the engine prior to the first start with an external electric oil pump, then I made sure we had oil pressure after the engine was started (the Lexus engines' oil pumps tended to not self-prime), and I'd keep watch on the analog coolant temp & oil pressure gauges during the dyno run. I would also be monitoring for leaks and unusual noises, and I held a kill button where I could do an emergency stop if anything looked or sounded awry.

3. The 3rd guy was in the dyno room with me, and his sole responsibility was fire watch with a 20lb ABC dry chemical extinguisher.

Author:  TheDarkSideOfWill [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

mk e wrote:
I'm not sure is I posted this or not but its on my mind and fits this theme......no doing first starts alone anymore.

There is just way too much going on with the first few start-ups for me to keep it all straight and keep an eye on everything....when the day comes I think I really need to a second set of hands and eyes on site. I'll need to get that figured out in the next few weeks.



LMK when you need a hand.

Author:  mk e [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

LMK when you need a hand.


Remind me how far away you are?...in MD was it?

It will still be some weeks....Nov seems most likely. which the way i go means Christmas I guess.

Author:  mk e [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

cribbj wrote:

Whenever we did a break in run for a freshly built Lexus V8 we did it with a known good 4bbl carb and a Ford EDIS8 firing COP's. No ECU's at all.
.....
We would have at least 3 guys (plus usually several spectators) when we dynoed:



3 does seem like a good number.

I remember you saying you had a startup setup....that would be really tough. I have a single crank pickup. I could make a carb setup I suppose....like a tunnel ram plenum bolted to the top of my TBs and just wire the TBs open and it should work. Picking the right carb with the right jetting would not be trivial though I guess.

I am planning to at a minimum hook the ecu to a scope, feed it the basic sensor signals and confirm all the spark and fuel outputs....that is on the to-do list as part of making and checking the dyno wiring harness.

I also now have a temp gun so checking all the header tube temps will be simple and quick with the engine on the bench....no guessing about cylinders on or off....and no more running when something is clearly wrong.

All these rules....I hate rules.....

Author:  cribbj [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

mk e wrote:
All these rules....I hate rules.....


Then think of them more as a startup procedure than rules :)

There's just too many things going on at one time, and IMHO you only have a VERY brief window (seconds?) to get it all right before ruining the rings/cylinders.

Author:  mk e [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

I have the magic ring seal stuff now so nothing to worry about right?

I have good luck over the years with wasting time getting engines loaded. I think the real issues come with the very light tension race engine type rings...might be wrong on that but I've run engines an at least a couple hours at fast idle (on/off/whatever rpm) and then gotten very good leakdown results and no oil issues s rings seated I guess.

...but I really want all the cylinders running, no over heating, no fires...stuff like that.

Author:  TheDarkSideOfWill [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

mk e wrote:
TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

LMK when you need a hand.


Remind me how far away you are?...in MD was it?

It will still be some weeks....Nov seems most likely. which the way i go means Christmas I guess.



I'm on the VA side of DC. I figured it wouldn't be tomorrow, but I have Navy commitments over the next few months, so ask early.

Author:  TheDarkSideOfWill [ Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

mk e wrote:
I guess I read it differently and didn't see anything persuasive. I reached to out Total seal asking for a recommendation and any data they base the recommendation on, I'll post whatever comes back if anything does.


Bunch of gapless ring discussion. Some people have had conventional top ring flutter problems with gapless 2nds

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... =1&t=52957
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... =1&t=48976
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... =1&t=48843
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... 15&t=23066
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... 15&t=21037
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewto ... =1&t=18568

Author:  mk e [ Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrankenFerrari - V12 ferrari 308 part 4

Saw it....I'll send a followup to total seal as gapless 2nd is there standard product. I suspect the issues reported are with low tension top rings vs the standard tension that comes in the kits but I'll ask. I know for sure on the 308 engine I was specifically told not to use a gapless top, but that was a blower motor and 15 years ago, different application, different times.

edit - got an out of office this time, emailing the replacement guy.

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