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Which means "Evil Twin". Lets see your projects where you change boring into fun or create the fun from scratch.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:07 pm 
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mk e wrote:
I didn't order replacements yet, I tuned up the drawing and asked for a finished price before deciding how to proceed.


The price isn't too bad at $165 each. They can't finish the bore and I'll need the finish the top flange....they use a standard undercut that is .125" wide if I want a tight tolerance....so I'll order it thick and cut that myself I guess


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:27 am 
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The chattered surface is what would end up as the deck?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:50 am 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
The chattered surface is what would end up as the deck?


No, in the bore. It gets honed but between the chatter and taper the top of the bore would not clean up to size.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:05 am 
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I guess the top would end up bigger as the thin end flexes while you're boring it...


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:20 am 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
I guess the top would end up bigger as the thin end flexes while you're boring it...


Exactly. The cutter was a bit sad I guess and was doing a lot more pushing than than cutting. I rough the length then do the bore while the OD is still way oversize to try to keep it as rigid as possible...but it was no match for a junk tool it seems. The first go around I did the bore towards the end and had a lot of trouble with it wanting to be out of round from the chuck clamping so at least that is solved now.

I'm going to finish up the 1 I think it good to be sure its good and Monday order 4 mostly finished from darton....cleaning up the drawings for them and adding material for me where they can't promise the required tolerance. I'll send back the 2 blanks I haven't touched and in 3-4 weeks have 4 sleeves that just need the the deck flange finish cut and finish hone. the exhaust seats are on there way so I can get the heads complete in the mean time. Bill at GT parts is kind of confusing me a bit too.....no bearings or rods have shipped. I'm going to try to get him on the phone then move the order to T Rutland is need be....it will be spring in 3 months and I"m looking at assembly in 4-5 weeks with the cylinder delay so I may have used up my whole dyno window at this point :(


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Did the gapless ring debate ever have a conclusion? Are you going to try to run a low tension gapless and if so, on top, or 2nd, or ???

And does anyone have experience with these new conformal rings by TotalSeal?: http://totalseal.com/total_conform_rings.html


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:34 am 
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cribbj wrote:
Did the gapless ring debate ever have a conclusion? Are you going to try to run a low tension gapless and if so, on top, or 2nd, or ???

And does anyone have experience with these new conformal rings by TotalSeal?: http://totalseal.com/total_conform_rings.html


It didn't end in consensus.

They (totalseal) say the gapless top makes more hp and pulls more vacuum which implies more pressure/hp but in talking to them I mostly they only talked about possible oil control issues due to the vacuum on street engine that run low throttle a lot of the time...but Will run it an was happy althogh I think he s doing a rebuild now that started with oil control issues????? They had no hp numbers to quote but said it was something like 6-10" more vacuum but I was REALLY unclear over conventional or over gapless second and it quickly became clear that they didn't know and had no report or test data they could provide.

Total seal recommends the gapless second for street use.

There are more race builders running the top than second but I couldn't find any A-B-C type data comparing the options anywhere and I've come to realize speedtalk is at least 95% trumptard types that make mostly faith based choices often in opposition to actual data. I'm pretty sure no OEM anywhere is running them which makes me pretty certain there is either and issue or the gain is too small to justify the cost which is why I didn't use them the 1st go round.

I've used that setup in the past and know a few others who have as well with no issues so that is what is ring in this time around. For sure the 2 engines I had them in were 0 leakdown after breakin and for sure I've seen another 4-6 that used them and had a similar result. Also for I've never seem a conventional ring engine do better than about 1% leadown with 2% or more most common so I'm certain gapless 2nd rings increase cranking vacuum and compression and will live......and figuring I wanted any little thing that might help I spent the extra money this go around.

I know nothing about the conformal rings....hey wait a minute.....are you getting to where you need rings are you?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 8:49 am 
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The new exhaust seats are here. These are 1mm bigger which is too big so they need the OD cut down.. another item on the to-do list....hopefully items start coming g off the list soon......


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:38 am 
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mk e wrote:
It didn't end in consensus.

They (totalseal) say the gapless top makes more hp and pulls more vacuum which implies more pressure/hp but in talking to them I mostly they only talked about possible oil control issues due to the vacuum on street engine that run low throttle a lot of the time...but Will run it an was happy althogh I think he s doing a rebuild now that started with oil control issues?????


My engine's problem was bore finish... actually twice now. Northstars are difficult to hone, apparently. Centrifugally cast grey iron liners that are subsequently cast in place in the block must be harder than most. I've found a company in North Jersey that is a production remanufacturer handling Northstars. They have a brand new Rottler, diamon stones, profilometers, etc. so they should be able to get it right for me. I'm close to having everything ready to haul the block up for them to work on.

When I assembled my engine, I installed the gapless rings with the main ring gap and rail gap 180 out. They were not still in that orientation when I removed them as I recently disassembled my engine. Having seen that, one has to wonder if the gapless rails rotate until the gaps of both parts align. If they move relative to each other in the first place, there's nothing stopping them from moving that far. The big question is: Once the gaps *DO* align, do the rails continue to rotate so as to make the ring gapless again? I'd *LOVE* to see data on that.

That may also be one reason OEMs don't use them... potentially inconsistent performance over the life of the engine. Getting power from modern DI/Turbo/VVT engines is EASY. Staying emissions legal is what's hard. Even if gapless rings can increase oil change intervals, OEMs are already pushing those intervals so far that the timing can actually result in detriment to the engine. They can do that because modern engine technology is SO GOOD that they have engine longevity out the wazoo despite slightly detrimental emissions-related policies.
Gapless rings are also significantly more expensive to make and require more touch labor to install. The OEMs haven't reached the point at which they're ready to pay the extra for the gain.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:43 pm 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

My engine's problem was bore finish... actually twice now.


All I'm saying is that totalseal does say oil control tends to be an issue with the gapless top setup....and you are having oil control issues. They told me it seemed to be hit and miss and they didn't really seem to know what caused it. Bore finish certainly could be the root cause..they were talking about oil pulling past the stems seals but as you pointed out that is pretty frikin easy to get right so the bore seems more likely. Hopefully the new hone job solves your issue.


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