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Which means "Evil Twin". Lets see your projects where you change boring into fun or create the fun from scratch.
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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:28 pm 
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I want a trackable street car, and I want not to worry about it having problems.

I've heard of Ferraris needing rod bearings at what strike me as absurdly low mileages, like 50k. I don't want that.

I certainly recognize that joe average engine builder trying to put ONE engine together with titanium rods is unlikely to get it to last long. For that reason I'm not interested in Ti rods.

With an 80mm stroke to get to 3980 cc's, a 137mm rod would result in a 1.71 rod ratio. That's not horrible, but not great either, and is pretty low for a 9000 RPM engine. That's why I'm asking about the block deck height, so that I know what I have to do to squeeze a longer rod in. Just a shorter piston? Put the pin hole into the oil ring groove? Add 13mm of deck height? Add 23mm of deck height ;-)

It would take 100 mm of stroke to get to 5.0. With 137 mm rods, that's a 1.37 rod ratio... That's even worse than a production 400 Chevy, which was pretty bad. And I haven't see a Ferrari deck height number yet, but bet it would put the piston pin CL above the deck.

And I definitely want to keep it under $50k, though I recognize that it will likely end up in the $15-$20k range.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:05 pm 
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A stock rebuild is in the 15k-25k range. The way I guestimate is take whatever the chevy price is and multiple by 10....or porsche priceX4, both come out about right.

I thinking was if you are making deck plates why add stroke....it might shake though?

Whats a set of custom rods cost? about $1500-$2000 is ringing bells, that's what I found it would take to get rods for my lincoln engine. Maybe just bite the bullet for custom there and save elsewhere? But I guess if you are doing custom liners and billet crank anyway :)


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:02 pm 
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The 308/328 deck height is 204.2mm or 8.0393" roughly. I think the 360 is the same however at the moment the block is in storage and I haven't the time to drag it out and measure it yet.

Dropping a 360 crank in now requires moving the wrist pin to crown distance, it gets thinner and that introduces another problem, cam timing and valve clearances. Not to mention ring land thickness and ring groove locations. All very workable but we're talking about custom pistons that are not 'off the shelf' I'd also highly suggest going with a 20mm wrist pin dia as well to deal with the forces at 9k+ rpm. Std barrel pistons are no go as they have too much mass so cross braced forgings are highly recommended. Not worry about problems translates for me to; how much money do you have to spend as you're going to need exponentially more the more complex it gets, so keep it as simple as possible to keep the cost down and reliability up.

The short stroke is a benefit to high RPM and it's needed due to a lack of low end TQ because of the short stroke, yeah it's a bit of circular logic but the entire engine was designed around a short stroke, trying to alter that it going to get prohibitively expensive, and not worth the trouble. Longest stroke I'd go with is the 360 crank, leave the rod length as is and focus on the cylinder heads and intake. Longer conrods will also monkey with offset thrust wear and liner wall clearances in the bottom of the block.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:09 am 
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Thanks or that info!

I'm aware of the piston concerns. I've had pistons made to order before, specifically CP's for my Northstar. Figure $1k for a set of 8 with pins, depending on how much the underlying forging costs. I like gapless top rings, but they can top $1k a set if lapped and in an "odd" bore size.

To my thinking, there's an optimal "depth" to get into the project that allows me to hit some goals with reasonable (considering it's a Ferrari) costs.

Longer rods translate to less side load at the bottom of the liner...hence their desirability for high RPM engines, as the side thrust increases with RPM. The limiting factor for all this is block deck height.

If it has a 204.2mm deck height, 40mm crank throw and 137mm rod, then there are 27.2mm left over for piston crown height. That's very tight, but workable without exotic techniques like pin bore plugs. However, there's definitely no room for a longer rod at that deck height and stroke.


Last edited by TheDarkSideOfWill on Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:18 am 
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mk e wrote:
A stock rebuild is in the 15k-25k range. The way I guestimate is take whatever the chevy price is and multiple by 10....or porsche priceX4, both come out about right.

I thinking was if you are making deck plates why add stroke....it might shake though?

Whats a set of custom rods cost? about $1500-$2000 is ringing bells, that's what I found it would take to get rods for my lincoln engine. Maybe just bite the bullet for custom there and save elsewhere? But I guess if you are doing custom liners and billet crank anyway :)


That's $15k-$25k with Ferrari parts and Ferrari dealership labor, right? I'm pretty confident I can undercut both of those. ;)
A billet crank is going to cost about the same for a Chevy or a Ferrari, for example. It might even be a little cheaper for a Ferrari as, due to the shorter stroke, it starts with a smaller bar and uses less machine time.

I think 4.0 is a good streetable size to produce "enough" low end torque, yet still spin up. With the deck height and rod length as mentioned above, I would not want to go longer than 80mm with the stroke. Even if I have it deck plated, probably wouldn't go any longer than that, but would use the extra height for longer rods to reduce the side loading at high RPM.

Pauter makes custom rods. Not cheap, but no more expensive for a Ferrari than a Chevy. Also would still like to go to Honda journals if they fit in the space available.

I guess I need to find out how long the timing belts are.

And email Nick's Forza to see if they do deckplating...


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:37 am 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
And email Nick's Forza to see if they do deckplating...


Scott (madhatter) does all Nick's development....so asking here is the same as asking Nick :)

Yes custom is the same for everyone. Most rod places do custom so its just a question of do you fit their forging or do you need billet which costs more. My point was custom everything is expensive and a top shelf chevy costs $50k to build.

Stock ferrari parts are pretty high end, the crank is work of art...years ago mine (308) was sitting in my buddy's bike shop were he was letting me work on it. A guy he knew popped in and saw the crank sitting there and ask if he could look at it, then asked who did the work. Buddy tells him its oem...the guy thes up mad that my buddy is jerking his chain instead of just saying he doesn't want to tell him. That aluminum liners in 308/328 are taper bored so they are straight at operating temp. The 348-360 liners are coated steel not iron. The stock parts are very good so you need topshelf in many case just to be equivalent.

They are not cheap engines to build and are way less cheap when you can't reuse or at least get good used parts to work with. You're right about labor, that can be 1/2 the cost....but i still think you'll be $30-50k on the path you're on. I used or made anything i possibly could and paid almost no one for labor and i think the engine itself is right around 40k. I think I have about $1500 into just the wiring.....its just expensive to do high end stuff chevy or ferrari.

But custom takes a long time and longer when its just you doing the work and when a project takes years and year to complete with a little spending here and a little more their its easy to "invest" big numbers without even noticing :)


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:43 pm 
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mk e wrote:
TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
And email Nick's Forza to see if they do deckplating...


Scott (madhatter) does all Nick's development....so asking here is the same as asking Nick :)


Sweeet. I didn't realize that... although from the 4.0 thread in the engines section, it's obvious he's close to the shop.

mk e wrote:
The stock parts are very good so you need topshelf in many case just to be equivalent.


That's why I was interested in NASCAR rods, as they are top shelf parts with top shelf engineering for very reasonable prices.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:54 pm 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
mk e wrote:
The stock parts are very good so you need topshelf in many case just to be equivalent.


That's why I was interested in NASCAR rods, as they are top shelf parts with top shelf engineering for very reasonable prices.


I get it, I was just trying to caution about lots of custom to avoid a little custom. Custom rods are about $200-$300 each which is a lot....but you'll be may times that that trying to make the NASCAR rods fit unless you really need the other custom anyway, then it makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Across these three auctions, I have a big chunk of the Ferrari parts I'd need for a lot less than I've ever seen for a complete 360 engine, but not getting a complete engine will cause me to be nickel and dimed (50'd and 100'd?) to death completing the engine.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300673067099

Image


http://www.ebay.com/itm/401036125012

Image


http://www.ebay.com/itm/131666657908

Image


Of course if I use 355 heads, then I don't get to play with the 360 variators...


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:07 pm 
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mk e wrote:
That aluminum liners in 308/328 are taper bored so they are straight at operating temp.


This has gotten me thinking... Wouldn't the need an "inverse barrel" shape... narrow in the middle and wider at the ends, as the ends are constrained by the press fit into the block? I'm sure they're final honed with a torque plate... are they also honed at operating temp?

mk e wrote:
The 348-360 liners are coated steel not iron.


Coated with what?


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