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Which means "Evil Twin". Lets see your projects where you change boring into fun or create the fun from scratch.
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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Posts: 166
Mostly galling, Ti due to it's metals physical properties and Ferrari's very tight clearances the risk of friction welding is very high, the oil system needs to be at 100% at all times and oil viscosity, pressure and temperature are critical, the 360 even uses a coolant/oil heat exchanger to get the oil to temp quickly when cold.

If you're curious you can read up about it on this wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

Another site I frequent that's a bit more technical but filled with great info talking about conrod materials: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=90426

Personally while I do like Ti rods and they have some great benefits, the downsides to sheer cost keep me from using them, shorter life span and the hassle/cost of tear down inspection etc... forget it. Now if I was racing or involved in racing then those downsides are factored against the edge one might get from the lighter rotating mass, then again it's not a one size fits all approach, endurance racing would make no sense for such high cost. 300M steel or better is fractional in cost and far better in it's elastic modulus.

Please don't take my msg as "never use Ti" for what I do and the engines I develop for Nick Forza there is also the issue of reliability and customer satisfaction, if the client wants a 'race engine' they can get one, I did develop a couple Ti conrod engines, one is being used for hill climb events in OZ. I just think that anyone building an engine should have at least some information on the choices they have beyond just 'this is the best' as there really is no such thing. it's all about compromise.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Posts: 417
Madhatter wrote:
Will,
I drop'd you a msg from the "other" site as well.

Nick says he'd let it all go for $4k, block, heads, cams, etc.. it's missing the crank, rods and pistons but otherwise complete. I stripped it down for inspection so it's in a bazillion bags! It was a spare engine sent for rebuild out of god knows what. No broken castings or cracks in the block or heads, the variator I was referring to is the camshaft end, when the engine seized it sheared off or the previous owner tried to remove the pulley and sheared it and that is not uncommon. I stripped down the oil pump and checked it's lash etc.. it's still good thankfully. One of the cyl heads has previous damage from what looks to have been a dropped valve, don't recall the cylinder number, easy enough to weld fill and grind... why that wasn't done before is anyone's guess.

If you're really interested I can drag it all out of storage and get more info for you and pics.

I know I also have the plastic covers, coolant heat exchanger and lots of other bits. I'll even throw in a FREE pallet :D

I need the space.. :lol:


I don't see a PM on either FLife or Fchat... Are you RifleDriver or TazandJan and referring to replies on my dimensions thread?

I am really interested and would like to see pics.

I assume it's at the address on Nick's website? I asked my dad to check on shipping cost for 400# from 98240 to 22849.
Also, it can be delivered where he works, which has a loading dock.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Do the rods gall to the bearing shells? Each other in adjacent rods? Issues with the pin bushings?

I has @$$umed Ferrari would use any coatings available to prevent that sort of foolishness, but Ferrari is not big on warranties.

GM used Ti rods in the LS7 and I think LS9 engines in the C6 ZO6 and C6 ZR1 Corvettes. With warranties. ;) And those are cars that are expected to be driven 100k miles with just oil changes.

Titanium also transmits shock differently than steel. Detonation in a Ti rod engine will wipe/spin rod bearings because the shock transmitted through the rod disrupts the oil wedge at the bearing.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Posts: 166
TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
Madhatter wrote:
Will,
I drop'd you a msg from the "other" site as well.

Nick says he'd let it all go for $4k, block, heads, cams, etc.. it's missing the crank, rods and pistons but otherwise complete. I stripped it down for inspection so it's in a bazillion bags! It was a spare engine sent for rebuild out of god knows what. No broken castings or cracks in the block or heads, the variator I was referring to is the camshaft end, when the engine seized it sheared off or the previous owner tried to remove the pulley and sheared it and that is not uncommon. I stripped down the oil pump and checked it's lash etc.. it's still good thankfully. One of the cyl heads has previous damage from what looks to have been a dropped valve, don't recall the cylinder number, easy enough to weld fill and grind... why that wasn't done before is anyone's guess.

If you're really interested I can drag it all out of storage and get more info for you and pics.

I know I also have the plastic covers, coolant heat exchanger and lots of other bits. I'll even throw in a FREE pallet :D

I need the space.. :lol:


I don't see a PM on either FLife or Fchat... Are you RifleDriver or TazandJan and referring to replies on my dimensions thread?

I am really interested and would like to see pics.

I assume it's at the address on Nick's website? I asked my dad to check on shipping cost for 400# from 98240 to 22849.
Also, it can be delivered where he works, which has a loading dock.


Hmm, no I used the send an email option.. nonetheless my screen name there is SMG2 to keep track. :)

Shipping would be from my local which is 92660, bottom end of the west coast :D and I'd be surprised if it was 400lbs probably more like 300 tops. a shipping pallet charge could be skipped as well if you use shipping bins, plastic ones, but not entirely sure if there is a total cost savings of bins vs a crate. Lift gate charges can skew things. Give me a till next week to get pics, getting ready to travel again in the next day.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:12 pm 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
Do the rods gall to the bearing shells? Each other in adjacent rods? Issues with the pin bushings?

I has @$$umed Ferrari would use any coatings available to prevent that sort of foolishness, but Ferrari is not big on warranties.

GM used Ti rods in the LS7 and I think LS9 engines in the C6 ZO6 and C6 ZR1 Corvettes. With warranties. ;) And those are cars that are expected to be driven 100k miles with just oil changes.

Titanium also transmits shock differently than steel. Detonation in a Ti rod engine will wipe/spin rod bearings because the shock transmitted through the rod disrupts the oil wedge at the bearing.


The galling occurs between BE faces, the clearances are really tight and if oiling isn't spot on it will gall and or frictionally transfer material. No Ferrari did not use coatings of any kind as that is also a tricky thing, it requires some fairly expensive and technical processing to do right and that would be way outside Ferrari's purchase cost structure. Instead they opted for oil grooves to be ground into the rods, but elected to not polish them after and the edge created it's own 'hot spot' and high contact area. Ti is elastic, really elastic compared to steel and it will move around a fair amount esp under the stresses of detonation which is why they will spin a bearing real quick. They will also twist about and that movement between the faces will lead to friction welding and or galling, seen it happen many times. Ti will also develop corrosive pitting under the bearing shells after sitting too long in oil that has developed acids, I think Mark touched on that in the past here.. .I could be wrong but I seem to recall a post or two about it. Ahh yep on old f-chat post.. normally I would cross post from there but this thread has good info that Mark has posted on.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/techni ... -rods.html


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:55 am 
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Madhatter wrote:

Hmm, no I used the send an email option.. nonetheless my screen name there is SMG2 to keep track. :)

Shipping would be from my local which is 92660, bottom end of the west coast :D and I'd be surprised if it was 400lbs probably more like 300 tops. a shipping pallet charge could be skipped as well if you use shipping bins, plastic ones, but not entirely sure if there is a total cost savings of bins vs a crate. Lift gate charges can skew things. Give me a till next week to get pics, getting ready to travel again in the next day.


I haven't received an email from either forum either.
For the weight, I was assuming the engine was 400+, missing about 50# of crank and rods, plus some extra parts and a little margin.

Fly safe!


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:47 pm
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this is getting serious.....

are you sure you don't want this part of the project up in engines? Its up to you...it is nice to have everything together too I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:37 am 
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Posts: 417
We'll end up talking dimensions and measurements for a while, and maybe even specific parts. However, once I get back from the 'Stan I'll be installing the 3.4 in the body, which will involve a good bit of chassis-related work.

When I'm actually ready to build the engine, I can start a new thread.
Or if you really want to give me moderator rights, I can split the engine posts into an engine topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:36 pm 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
Or if you really want to give me moderator rights, I can split the engine posts into an engine topic.


I made you an administrator so you should now have nearly unlimited power.....use it wisely :)

....but now the dark secret I've been hiding for nearly 2 years will be visible to you.....the database became corrupted when I deleted a bible thumper and now it always looks like there is a post waiting approval (new members posts need moderator approval) in the engine forum and the only way to know for sure is to click the moderator button and look. Also most of the new users who join are spammers.....and if I recognize the @xxx address I delete them without waiting for them to post, or if they do post I just click admiister user and delete them and there posts, no message goes out their account just disappears and no one other than me, and now you, ever knows it happened. But you don't need to bother with any of that unless you want to, you should be able to move or split you thread how ever you like. Or just leave it as is....its completely up to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrari 3408 project
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Madhatter wrote:
Shipping would be from my local which is 92660, bottom end of the west coast :D and I'd be surprised if it was 400lbs probably more like 300 tops. a shipping pallet charge could be skipped as well if you use shipping bins, plastic ones, but not entirely sure if there is a total cost savings of bins vs a crate. Lift gate charges can skew things. Give me a till next week to get pics, getting ready to travel again in the next day.


Since you mention a lift gate, I assume you don't have a loading dock. Freightquote.com came in just a smidge under $500. Do you have a cheaper way to ship?


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