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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 7:51 pm 
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mk e wrote:
I know nothing about the conformal rings....hey wait a minute.....are you getting to where you need rings are you?


I wish..... no, just continued curiousity about the gapless debate and/or thoughts on these new conformal rings.

Also curious about whether the gapless or conformal can be fitted with less tension than normal rings so as to reduce friction without compromising sealing.

Also, do Totalseal recommend gas ported pistons with these rings or no?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 8:15 am 
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cribbj wrote:

I wish..... no, just continued curiousity about the gapless debate and/or thoughts on these new conformal rings.

Also curious about whether the gapless or conformal can be fitted with less tension than normal rings so as to reduce friction without compromising sealing.

Also, do Totalseal recommend gas ported pistons with these rings or no?


Is the engine project moving at all?

My rings are standard tension and the pistons have no gas ports. I asked JE what they recommended and they went with it. I honestly can't imagine gas ports staying open and functional on a street engine....and when they throttle is closed as it often is on street engines they have to be sucking the rings in I'd think. I'm not sure how well low tension rings actually control oil either, again not really an issue on a race engine the basically is never pulling vacuum but it is an issue on the street.

Thinking WAY back I remember that the 308 used to smoke a bit when sitting for longish time in traffic. At the time I used to think it was maybe the mixture was a bit rich to help is idle smoother. I knew the guides were new and tight with new stem seals and the cylinders had been refinished nicely and showed 0 leak-down......so it had to be fuel......but thinking now it was more likely oil getting past the rings and I'm seriously wondering if the gapless 2nd ring wasn't contributing......and perhaps the problem get worse as the gapless ring moves up to the top groove.....like its sucking the rings below it into their grooves and off the wall. Just a guess....but they seal really well......


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:20 am 
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mk e wrote:

My rings are standard tension and the pistons have no gas ports. I asked JE what they recommended and they went with it. I honestly can't imagine gas ports staying open and functional on a street engine....and when they throttle is closed as it often is on street engines they have to be sucking the rings in I'd think. I'm not sure how well low tension rings actually control oil either, again not really an issue on a race engine the basically is never pulling vacuum but it is an issue on the street.

Thinking WAY back I remember that the 308 used to smoke a bit when sitting for longish time in traffic. At the time I used to think it was maybe the mixture was a bit rich to help is idle smoother. I knew the guides were new and tight with new stem seals and the cylinders had been refinished nicely and showed 0 leak-down......so it had to be fuel......but thinking now it was more likely oil getting past the rings and I'm seriously wondering if the gapless 2nd ring wasn't contributing......and perhaps the problem get worse as the gapless ring moves up to the top groove.....like its sucking the rings below it into their grooves and off the wall. Just a guess....but they seal really well......


*LATERAL* gas ports (which are basically radial grooves in the upper surface of the top ring groove help ring seal and work in street engines without coking up.

I'm only ever talking about gapless top rings, as gapless 2nd rings are an abomination before God and Odin.

A gapless ring with pressure on top is pushed down against the bottom surface of the groove. Pressure moves between the ring and the top surface of the groove to get behind the ring and push it out against the bore surface. This seals combustion pressure.

Is a gapless ring with pressure below (intake stroke) even gapless? If the ring is against the top surface of the groove and pressure moves between the bottom of the ring and the bottom of the groove, gas can then flow around the inside edge of the rail and out through the gap in the main ring. This may not as much of a gap as a conventional ring, but they're not gapless on the intake stroke.

Having a gapless top allows the 2nd ring to focus on oil control, which results in better oil control.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:29 am 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

Having a gapless top allows the 2nd ring to focus on oil control, which results in better oil control.


And yet the gapless top setup is notoriously related to engine oil consumption issues and I strongly suspect that if you stopped using that setup you would magically no longer be struggling with oil control. the totalseal guy was saying its related to increased vacuum but was unable to provide a rational explanation for how exactly the setup makes more vacuum or any data...the increased vacuum number he quoted me for gapless top or 2nd were the same numbers. The whole conversation just made no sense to me and really left me questioning the general competence of at least the techs who answer the phone if not the company.

Most full race engine are running true multi stage dry sump setups designed to pull crankcase vacuum and/or specifically running a vacuum pump. Street engines generally are not and its the street engine where the oil control issues seem to exist along with claims of increased manifold vacuum readings (street engine rarely run as aggressive cams as race only engines....so again more vacuum trying to pull oil past the rings). Hard to believe that's all just a coincidence.

For now I'll stick with the gapless 2nd setup and if I end up having oil consumption issues I'll know its time to re-ring with standard and swear off gapless forever if the problem goes away. A lot of ifs...time to go build something :)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:11 pm 
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mk e wrote:
A lot of ifs...time to go build something :)


A construction manager told me years ago "At some point in every project, there comes a time to shoot the engineers and just build the dam thing :)"


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:09 pm 
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mk e wrote:
And yet the gapless top setup is notoriously related to engine oil consumption issues and I strongly suspect that if you stopped using that setup you would magically no longer be struggling with oil control.


It's definitely the bores, man. Don't make me post pics... they're ugly.

In terms of oil control, for oil to get into the chambers, it has to make it past the oil ring and the 2nd ring... If they're not doing their jobs, the top ring isn't going to stop the oil.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:35 am 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

It's definitely the bores, man. Don't make me post pics... they're ugly.

In terms of oil control, for oil to get into the chambers, it has to make it past the oil ring and the 2nd ring... If they're not doing their jobs, the top ring isn't going to stop the oil.


I'm not doubting that the bores are less than ideal, maybe far less. Its just that I had a couple really weird conversations with the 2 techs I spoke with. They both worked really hard to convince me NOT to buy a gapless top ring set and they concern was oil consumption but the explanation was piss poor.

When I had Burns design my headers I fully expected they would be step headers so when I got the design and it wasn't I called and quizzed them a bit....the answers made perfect sense and I left the conversation pretty confident that is my simulations were saying something different from what Burns designed then my simulation was wrong. The answers were that clear and to the point. My conversations with totalseal were the opposite of that and honestly left me questioning if I should buy anything from them ever.....but I know they sell lots of rings and lots of people have good luck with them.....then google told me the founder and clearly the guy that actually understood rings died in 2016 and it all started to make sense and answer are less clear than they might have been some years back. I did the 308 engine build in like....2001? and back then they said gapless top was a terrible idea and just stop that nonsense....the reasoning then iirc was it gets too hot but clearly that was not true.

I just don't know......but when the people making it say don't because it will probably cause oil consumption issues I have to believe them :)

I just did a quick patent search and found JE pistons had a patent for a gapless ring that had a pin to maintain the correct gap alignments. It was from 2005 and is currently abandoned, these days you need to pay a fee every few years to maintain the patent but they didn't and don't sell the product so it must not have worked. not sure why you could just do the 2 stroke pin in the piston trick?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:23 am 
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mk e wrote:
I'm not doubting that the bores are less than ideal, maybe far less. Its just that I had a couple really weird conversations with the 2 techs I spoke with. They both worked really hard to convince me NOT to buy a gapless top ring set and they concern was oil consumption but the explanation was piss poor.

When I had Burns design my headers I fully expected they would be step headers so when I got the design and it wasn't I called and quizzed them a bit....the answers made perfect sense and I left the conversation pretty confident that is my simulations were saying something different from what Burns designed then my simulation was wrong. The answers were that clear and to the point. My conversations with totalseal were the opposite of that and honestly left me questioning if I should buy anything from them ever.....but I know they sell lots of rings and lots of people have good luck with them.....then google told me the founder and clearly the guy that actually understood rings died in 2016 and it all started to make sense and answer are less clear than they might have been some years back. I did the 308 engine build in like....2001? and back then they said gapless top was a terrible idea and just stop that nonsense....the reasoning then iirc was it gets too hot but clearly that was not true.


Oh yeah, there's ALSO plenty of silliness at Total Seal... I have no doubt there's a good bit of "creative salesmanship" going on there.


mk e wrote:
I just did a quick patent search and found JE pistons had a patent for a gapless ring that had a pin to maintain the correct gap alignments. It was from 2005 and is currently abandoned, these days you need to pay a fee every few years to maintain the patent but they didn't and don't sell the product so it must not have worked. not sure why you could just do the 2 stroke pin in the piston trick?


Interesting... I'd actually been thinking about how to go about that without drilling a hole in the ring and thereby inducing a stress point and compromising its stiffness. Have a link?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:38 am 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

Interesting... I'd actually been thinking about how to go about that without drilling a hole in the ring and thereby inducing a stress point and compromising its stiffness. Have a link?


https://patents.google.com/patent/US20060249913A1/en

This is drilling a hole in the ring which as you say seems a bad idea. The 2-stroke type pins was the thought that popped into my head the second I saw holes in rings.

I guess total seal is now owned by a venture capital firm but the previous manager is still running the place, at least for now. Normally the only time venture capital is involved is to strip out all remaining equity from the business. They have 10-15 years where existing customers will continue to buy existing products with no improvements or innovations which is plenty of time to make a good return if they don't switch to clearly inferior outsourced produces sold with a huge markup too soon, that sets the clock to about 3 year I guess before there are no customers left.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:17 pm 
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I think the bearings and rods are actually bought and shipping now, should see them in a week then they can be measured and the crank ground to match. All the GT parts stuff came to $1500 :(

The cylinders didn't go as well. I did a little work with what I had and decided to just order 5 instead of fighting to make it just 4. Sent the order off and got an auto response that they are basically closed until the 6th....hopefully that was what caused the 3-4 week lead and on the 6th the lead time will be 2-3 weeks but I'm not really expecting to see have cylinders until the end of Jan. At 165 each that's $825 but I can return the 2 for 180 I think it is.....hopefully Lana takes pity on me for what I've done....


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