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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:02 am 
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G'day Gemellocattivo Members,

Design challenge for Forum readers / advice on how to incorporate original Porsche Gauges and a set of Stack Stepper-motor Gauges into a Full MoTeC system!

In the advantaged stages of building a Porsche 935K3 running on "Full" - MoTeC; M190GPR, C187, PDM32 & PDM16 as the main electrical devices.

Now exploring the options to "drive" the original "Porsche" gauges out of the outputs of the M190, C187 and / or PDM's. I like to retain the "OLD SKOOL" look of the dash and avoid a double set of sensors to input MoTeC and Porsche / Stack gauges separately and having a Christmas Tree of sensors on the engine and gearbox. The sensors on the engine and gearbox / transmission will be of "Motorsport" grade while retaining the original Porsche fuel level sender and oil level sender. In addition, a set of IDIOT Lights on the Dash needs to be driven out of MoTeC as well, 5 units; Low Fuel, Alternator, Oil Pressure, Fan Belt & Launch Control "ACTIVE".

DASHBOARD

Gauge 1, Fuel Level Tank & Oil Level Tank

Gauge 2, Engine Oil Pressure & Engine Oil Temperature

Gauge 3, Tachometer

Gauge 4, Speedometer

Gauge 5, Boost (Mechanical - pressure line from manifold)

In addition the centre console will hold additional gauges (refer to attachment IMG_7020) for mock-up. The brand of gauges is "Stack" and will backdate the dial-face and hands to VDO period correct appearance at a later stage when all is working as it should. Same here, like to drive them out of MoTeC and "Motorsport" grade sensors and eliminate the original Stack sensors.

Gauge 6, Fuel Pressure

Gauge 7, Transmission Oil Pressure

Gauge 8, Transmission Oil Temperature

In case technical info is required on the Porsche Gauges and Stack Gauges, please let me know and will add the data to this post.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:28 am 
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Welcome. Beautiful car and work....am I seeing right hand drive?

You have the electronics I decided I just couldn't afford so knowledge is only superficial ...but i know the right questions are:
Are the stock gauges analog?
Do you have the development package with the M190? If not which package do you have?

The development pkg lets you add any function the ecu you want so with that for sure you can get it working but one of the other pkg might work...I'd need to dig a bit to see what outputs are available

I also know there is a motec forum and as much as it pains me recommend a different forum.....but if no one here ends up having the answers you seek that might be the place:
https://www.motec.com.au/forum/


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:04 am 
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Thanks for the welcome and compliments!

Yep, it's a right hand drive car - chassis is UK, 930 1979, coincidently the same year as the Le Mans winning car with the Whittington brothers & Klaus Ludwig. BTW, interesting story how they got involved. (https://www.facebook.com/1389956016/pos ... 100036029/).

Stock gauges are analog, 12V power supply, Ground and sensor input. All sensors two (2) wire only through ground. Pretty old skool stuff I recon.
Stack Gauges are Stepper-Motor driven 12V power supply, Ground and three (3) wire sensor for pressure and two (2) wire for temperature sensor.
In need for some advice to "drive" the original Porsche Gauges straight from the MoTeC outputs and for the Stack Gauges, omit the original Stack Sensors and drive them also straight from the MoTeC outputs as well.

Do have available:
GPR-M190 (no development pkg yet of today)
C187 + 44 i/o + data logging


Have been on the MoTeC forum to check it out but did not see anything off the chart in terms of designs, connections and operations of gauges, all straight forward stuff what they do with a display in front of them and discarding the original gauges. My aim is to maintain the vintage look and feel and under the hood modern electronics. Original fuel pump (MFI) is insanely expensive and extremely difficult to tune, at least here in Malaysia.

Going through this forum and reading on your engine conversion / build, impressed with the knowledge and dedication to make things work. Feel that I am at the proper place to get my Project done on the electrical side.

BTW, like you Multi MAP sensor, need to investigate if it is something to add on the engines!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:24 am 
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Well, driving an analog gauge is pretty simple.

1) you need a sensor connected to the ECU for whatever it is, lets say oil pressure.
2) Connect the gauge sensor lead to an output pin at the ecu
3) set up the ecu output to be a pwm with constant frequency...maybe 1k to 10k and set the dutycyle to vary proportionally with the oil pressure.
4) calibrate by looking at the reading in the ecu and setting the upper and lower duty cycle output to match the upper and lower gauge reading.

So in theory its simple. in the enginelab ecu I use something like this is about 3 lines in the model, really simple to setup.....it will be more in the motec but I'm not sure how much more. I started with an M150 and was looking at the gpr pkg.....but realize I need to buy more stuff and probably go to the development pkg....so I bailed and bought the enginelab that is 1/2 the price of just the M150 and didn't need me to buy anything else.....so I never looked at how to code the motec. I might be able to find time to look through the manual but it will be a little bit.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Thanks for the info, this will lead me into the right direction. Any suggestion and / or advice is welcome. Not very well versed with ECU and programming though. 8-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:26 pm 
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You've got crazy amount of electronics power. In the states your dealer normally helps you set it all up to meet your needs and that's why I thought maybe the motec forum would be the place to get very specific questions answered as the motec techs read it and respond (usually)

We can try to talk you through it though. What you want to do is not hard and might be supported in the package you have.......its a matter of digging through and figuring it out though and that takes time.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:12 am 
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The reason for MoTeC system is two fold;
1) technical aspects; possibilities, VE & Deutsch Motorsport connectors
2) MoTeC Guy is often at Sepang International circuit where I race for support and will do the initial tuning.
Other ECU manufacturers don’t have a proper rep. close by. At least I am not aware of them.

Living 300km away from Kuala Lumpur and 500km away from Singapore means that I am always far away from sources. Parts & spares are sourced from either Europe , USA or far south, Australia - New Zealand. Takes lot of planning, time & patience. You can imagine short of parts - wait an other couple of weeks to arrive.

Posted my query also on the MoTeC forum, just have to wait for their response.

So far as I understand can do the following:
1) Idiot Lights (those big alarm lights in-between the gauges - 5 units) can feed them 12V from the PDM and switch them on the low side - simple function either ALARM "ON" or "FLASHING" via:
a) C187 - Auxiliary Outputs (1 A max.) - Aux1 up to Aux5
or
b) M190 - Low Side Output (2 A max.) - Out_LS1 up to Out_LS5

2) Porsche Gauges; Fuel Level, Oil Level, Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Tachometer & Speedometer can feed them 12V again from the PDM, possibly from the same output as the Idiot Lights.
a) M190 - Half Bridge Output (12A Low side & 9A High side), PWM Mode low side drive max. 20kHz. - Out_HB1 up to Out_HB6
connected to the sensor side of the gauge.
or
b) M190 - Low Side Output (2 A max.), PWM Mode low side drive max. 20kHz. - Out_LS1 up to Out_LS6

3) Stack Gauges: Fuel Pressure, Oil Press. Gearbox & Oil Temp. Gearbox can feed them 12V again from the PDM, possibly from the same output as the Idiot Lights & Porsche Gauges.
a) M190 - Half Bridge Output (12A Low side & 9A High side), PWM Mode low side drive max. 20kHz. - Out_HB7 up to Out_HB9
connected to the sensor side of the gauge.
or
b) M190 - Low Side Output (2 A max.), PWM Mode low side drive max. 20kHz. - Out_LS1 up to Out_LS3

NOTE: consideration is to group outputs and provide for spares on the Out_LS's & Out_HB's for other functions to incorporate.

QUESTION:
A) How to deal with the 5V & 0V output of the Stack Pressure Gauges, they suppose to feed the sensor?? Sensor is of different Brand (KA Sensors - 3 wire and 5V, 0V and signal connected direct to M190).
B) How to deal with the sensor 0V output of the Stack Temperature Gauge, they again suppose to feed the sensor. Connect to M190 - 0V??


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:28 am 
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I'm not questioning the motec choice. An M190 has tons of I/O then you have 32+16 more outputs and it looks like a bunch of switch inputs.

How many coils and injectors are you running 6 and 6? The unused coil and injector outputs are available as optional outputs and the M190 has 12/24

What you've written about how to do it looks correct to me, but add the unused spark/fuel outputs to the list of available lowside outputs.

Your Questions
a&b) Don't use the 5V/0V outputs from the gauges. Connect the sensors to the ECU sensor 5V/0V and the output goes to the ecu. Nothing but sensors go on the sensor 5v and 0v...you don't want noise on those lines.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 am 
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Forgot this....my point was I know you have plenty of hardware options that can do what you want to do, what in unclear about is what that software or pkg is setup to do.

I'm certain there is a tach output and certain there are warning light options for anything you want a warning about......I'm not sure there are variable dutycylce pwm options.....that's what you need to figure out because that is the signal most gauges need. The tach and speedo are variable frequency pwm


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:40 am 
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Motec is a choice I made a long time ago and quite pleased with it on the technical aspect, commercial is a bit of a different league and in that respect the whole car is in a different league. Build a 911-RSR 1974 replica some years ago based on a 964 chassis and went all out with standard Porsche parts, i.e. GT3 gearbox, GT3 ABS, 993 GT2 EVO 2 front end and that list also goes on and on. The current 935K3 build is almost an exact copy of the original K3 and body panels are "pulled" from the same moulds as the 1979 Le Mans winning car. Something very special! Met with one of the Kremer Brothers a few times and got a lot of support from the "old" Kremer guys on this build. So far money well spent! 8-)

For the engines;
1) Engine re-build from the original 930, bore x stroke 98mm x 70.4mm with Porsche 993 Motorsport Cylinders and Pistons, 993 turbo heads. Nothing too fancy. And BorgWarner EFR Turbos. Estimated power approx. 600BHP, 400 all day.

2) Engine to be build, all major spare parts available, bore x stroke 98mm x 66mm, flame ringed cylinders, 935 heads, GT3 titanium con rods, 935 rockers - aftermarket CNC machined, KKK K27 turbos - modified with roller bearings. Brutal, same as those old cars. Estimated power approx. 800BHP, 600 all day.

3) Engine, do have an engine case, still thinking what to do!

Ignition, at least one or two with original distributor set up, twin spark, thus 12 plugs - 2 coils - Bosch 8pin CD Boxes, aftermarket with modern electronics. One engine with twin spark coil on plug, thus also 12 plugs.

Injection, engine 1 & 2 - single injectors, brand Injector Dynamics. Engine 3 probably dual stage injectors. Need to build a "horseshoe" intake out of Aluminium sheet. Engine 1 & 2 do have casted magnesium horseshoe intakes.

In short, plenty of options to accommodate for in the main harness. Engine harness will be obviously different for each engine to accommodate for the setup.


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