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Which means "Evil Twin". Lets see your projects where you change boring into fun or create the fun from scratch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:53 am 
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I got an email yesterday kind of asking me this question and I thought I'd open it the panel

My answer was it would NOT be a 400/TR hybrid :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:27 am 
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If cheap HP is the only goal, and the owner doesn't care about authenticity, exclusivity, etc. the answer is easy. An LSx of some sort.

If he wants to maintain a Ferrari powerplant, what about one of Nick's bored & stroked motors with a supercharger or turbo(s)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:59 am 
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cribbj wrote:
If cheap HP is the only goal, and the owner doesn't care about authenticity, exclusivity, etc. the answer is easy. An LSx of some sort.

If he wants to maintain a Ferrari powerplant, what about one of Nick's bored & stroked motors with a supercharger or turbo(s)


LS was on his list....which made me think of Fiero conversion kits as a good starting point. The comment I have there went to the feel of the car....a lot of low-end torque makes the car feel very different, thats what I notice with the high boost blower setup, it felt more like driving a vette until the revs got up high and I remembered it was a ferrari, but in town there was never a reason to rev it so fast but......


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:25 pm 
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Slide a F430 engine in, Motec it and that gives you near enough 500hp stock.

John


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:02 am 
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I thought the guy would post here....he was looking at a 2vi car that was priced well and ended up finding the exact same care posted in 3 or 4 places at different prices and claiming its in different locations so clearly at least most of the listings are scams. Not sure where hes headed now but what engine to install probably needs to wait for a car to pop up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:30 am 
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mk e wrote:
I thought the guy would post here....he was looking at a 2vi car that was priced well and ended up finding the exact same care posted in 3 or 4 places at different prices and claiming its in different locations so clearly at least most of the listings are scams. Not sure where hes headed now but what engine to install probably needs to wait for a car to pop up.



Here I am.., finally.. :lol: I've been away from a computer for awhile.
Yep, those $20k or less 308 GTBs for sale, most of them I believe, seem to be scams.. Naturally first I would need a car to work on..

I've been reading several long threads about turbocharging or supercharging the original engine (at ferrarichat and other sites).
My original thought was that it is not possible to get 500+ hp out of an original 2.9L engine. After having read about it, it seems it is, but probably it needs alot of mods, also internally, atleast if I want it to last a bit... And of course I do want.

The car would be used mainly for road use for "hobby" sunday drives, sometimes on track days / autoslalom (not sure how do you call this type of motorsports there in US..) and car shows. The goal is to have really nice strong power in mid rpm range, also quite nice power in the upper rpm range. I am not as such after strong torque in the low rpm range (as Mark nicely pointed out to me in one-on-one discussions, I too do not want to loose all those original characteristics of the original engine.

Thus, now the first priority is to the figure out and research this charging option (and maybe later come back to the LSx or other American V8 engine). The costs (both to build and later on maintain/service) are big factors to me (but not the whole thing, otherwise I wouldn't do any mods).

As summarized, this is what I have gathered which mods are needed: New JE pistons and rings (a must for turbocharging), turbo & intercooler (my initial must from the beginning), modern EFI & modern ignition (these 2 as a whole engine management system) & all the sensors and fuel delivery parts, "intake manifold" (for the lack of a better expression..) and throttle body and plenum, mods on the heads (probably), new valve springs, oil pump & oil lines for the turbo & oil cooler, clutch. Maybe mods on the cams? I might have forgotten something from this list. Anyway, A LOT OF MODS & PARTS TO BE CHANGED.
Naturally also the exhaust manifolds, but these are needed to be renewed with an engine swap also.. (Here I want to compare the two options first).

Reg. intercooler, whether it is water-to-air or air-to-air: I searched some and it seems that water-to-air would be more efficient, especially of the intercooler is located near the engine (at the back) instead of in the front of the car. I still need to study how much work it is to install that and how it all works.

To my understanding there is not available complete bold-on turbo kits at the moment. If this is the case, all the tubing would need to be done from scratch.. Big job (to get the exhaust manifolds exactly even lengths etc.)

Most likely the same list of mods applies with the supercharging. But I think there are available "bold-on" supercharger kits. This helps.

I cannot do any mechanical mods (machining or such) or EFI tuning myself, have to get them done by an expert. I can do all or most of the disassembly and assembly work, My friends can weld. In Finland where I live there isn't either at all or not many experts on Ferrari engines. Then again, it is just a four-stroke motor working pretty much the same way as any other gasoline powered engine.. Maybe with the help from Ferrari owners worldwide (such as you and others on ferrarichat) I (with some local friends of mine) could manage..?

Second (or third) option would be the LSx or other American V8 engine swap. It costs about $10.000. Gives, depending on the chosen engine, 400-500+ hp. If that is not enough, there are "ready" "bold-on" supercharger (Vortech or Rotrex) kits (about $5-6k).

This option, as Mark pointed out, will change the characteristics of the car tremendously (if the cams would not be changed): Low-reving V8 with lots of torque at low rpms. Then again, it would be much much easier to "just" buy a crate engine (and possibly supercharge it). The problem is to sort out how this could fit in the engine bay and get attached to the original transmission if/when installed transversially like the original engine.

My original thought was to kinda copy the 288GTO which has the engine longitudially. But I believe here the biggest problems are the fitment of the engine + transmission package and which transmission to use (must be manual). The wheelbase of the 288 GTO was, to my understanding, lengthened by 110mm (some 4,33 inches), all that in the engine bay. Engine itself would probably fit, but most likely the "output holes" for the drive shafts in the tranny (I don't know what they are called in English..) would be too far back, so that the CV joints of the drive shafts were at too tight of an angle, depending on the transaxle to be used. Which transaxle would you recommend for this (to my understanding it would need the output holes as close to the bell housing as possible)?

The set up used in DeTomaso Pantera (with ZF transaxle) might work, I would need to get the hold of a Pantera to get the measurement of the engine & transaxle package.

I would consider the F430 engine to be maybe too expensive, all in all.. Not sure though.
And acquiring a newer more powerful Ferrari is not my thing (I like the looks of the 308 the best).

Some thoughts?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:18 pm 
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The cheapest HP you'll find will be an American LSx. For under $11 or $12 thou, you can get a crate engine, with warranty, an ECU and a harness.

I don't like them myself, but they're cheap and reliable. Now when you get into modifying a smaller V6 or even an Asian V6/V8, with boost, and built internals then you're spending a fair amount of money. Question is, do you want to drive the car or work on the car?

Most of us here who have projects haven't actually driven our cars in years. Sometimes I wish I'd taken a guy's advice years ago who told me I really ought to drop an LSx into my project car (not a Ferrark BTW) instead of modifying that Japanese V8 which currently owes me around $20K.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:54 am 
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Jan K wrote:

I cannot do any mechanical mods (machining or such) or EFI tuning myself, have to get them done by an expert. I can do all or most of the disassembly and assembly work, My friends can weld.
Some thoughts?


This statement will easily double and maybe quadrupedal the project cost so I would say the only viable options for you to stay on budget are a bolt-on supercharger kit which will not get you 500hp but will give you a run car or have a place like Nick's Forza or similar build you an engine you can them bolt in.

Maybe better is hunt for a car that already has most of the work you want already done. Project like this normally end up as sunk costs and often lower the vehicle value rather than increasing it so a car with these mods can be a GREAT value if you find one already done....might be worth digging a bit on this path.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 4:33 pm 
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The 348 and 355 use a longitudinal transaxle that fits in the 308 wheelbase. I am (very slowly) working on such a swap.

If you can't do much yourself, or don't have time to learn how, then I agree with Mark... cut a (large) check to Nick's and get a more-or-less turn key 400+ HP 3.9 build you can drop in.


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