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Which means "Evil Twin". Lets see your projects where you change boring into fun or create the fun from scratch.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:01 pm 
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FoaTech wrote:

They are made with little caps because they are acorns nyloc style.


Nope. I just looked at one and they have threads in the steel all the way up and down.

I should mention that they are used on the 308 cam covers as well, but
I am not sure that they are clear cad on the 308's.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:16 am 
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mk e wrote:
Madhatter wrote:

I'm amazed at the amount of work you've put into this project, it's makes me think of "just one more thing" as my son says as I read over the posts and see where the fun is going.

I was thinking... your going to have to have some kind of tension filled ceremony at start-up and then a premier party! Then a world tour... :)


I held off responding to this one because it's an issue that has been floating in my mind for some time and still I'm not sure how to handle it exactly.

My thought has been I'll probably publicly say "its not ready" then quietly go try it but the reality will probably be more along the lines of a series of system checks and one day I'll just report that as part of the days testing it fired up for some amount of time. There is just SO much stuff that has been touched that I'm expecting a month or 2 of do-over type stuff as I move through systems checks leading to first run, then probably the whole rest of the season in other adjustments (aka do-overs) once it does run.

This became a HUGE project.......but at some point there will be a party!




I understand that. I did an engine out, cams out, re-sealed everything, no service manual, major service on a Jag XJ220. Replaced fuel pumps and fuel cell.
I start at 6am everyday and I came in, did another system check and hit the start button. It all worked and I GoPro'ed the start up. But all alone, no one to ask questions, just me and my nerves.

Just film it for us.

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Wade Williams
Master Ferrari Tech
Restoration Tech
Engine Machinist
Fabricator
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:39 am 
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FoaTech wrote:
I understand that. I did an engine out, cams out, re-sealed everything, no service manual, major service on a Jag XJ220. Replaced fuel pumps and fuel cell.
I start at 6am everyday and I came in, did another system check and hit the start button. It all worked and I GoPro'ed the start up. But all alone, no one to ask questions, just me and my nerves.

Just film it for us.


Yup, pucker factor so high your ass will warp spacetime! :shock:


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:02 am 
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Somehow 14 O2 sensors seemed like a better plan in my head than it seems looking at 14 O2 sensors, bungs and connector in a pile on the floor!

Same for the box of 12 LS-2 coils....actually a box of 16 coils because they were sets of 8 so I guess that like project looks worse than it actually is . They are Chinese coils so I figured having 4 spares was probably a good thing.

The SS brake line also came so I should be ready there if I ever finish the brackets.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:05 am 
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Madhatter wrote:
You know I've always wondered about this, why is O2 data not able to be fed directly to an ECU? makes no sense to me, it's just a signal. But as you've noticed there is always some 'box' needed - why???


The WB needs a different driver than the NB; since these drivers are not installed in production ECU's, the use of a WB requires and external driver box. The box also includes the logic to deliver a 0-5V lambda output and a 0-1V NB "spoof" output that can go to a production ECU's NB input.
The NB sensors basically just require a 0.5V constant voltage source.

Madhatter wrote:
10Hz... man that's slooooooooooooooow nearly useless, I'd say they know that and hence the massive gap to 200Hz and that O2 sensors on avg are 300milliseconds in response which is .......... 200Hz :ugeek:


I think you've been in the skunk works too long ;)
I can't imagine anything on a car that actually needs 200Hz data. 10Hz can capture momentary wheel spin events.
300ms is 3.3 Hz, but I thought O2's were quicker than that... is that the right number of zeros?

Madhatter wrote:
Unless Motec is feeding additional data or an carrier signal into the ECU with their box I don't see why any convertor wouldn't work. 'course that requires knowing what the box is looking for... shouldn't be to hard with a night or two of google searching the deepweb :geek: :shock:


MoTeC uses their own CAN specification for the O2 boxes to talk to the ECU... so you end up doing a lot of bus sniffing to reverse engineer the packet spec. Since you have to buy a controller to do that... it's a better use of time just to buy two controllers and move forward.

Madhatter wrote:
looking over some of the data on the D585 coils, shows that at about ~4ms of dwell it'll pull ~10Amps, so your looking at ~120Amps peak for the coils. Of course as dwell drops so does the draw.. If you've noticed a lot of V12's up to the 90's ran 2 alternators.


That current number doesn't sound right... also, didn't Testarossas use distributors?

Madhatter wrote:
coils will draw the most wherever the dwell time is longest, either bench testing or the data points provided by the mfg can give you the relevant amp draw to dwell time. From what I've seen on the vids from the bench testing the D585 a 4~5millisecond dwell ranges from 10~12amps, So if it idle your running 4~5ms then the amp draw on the system will be 120~144 amps. That honestly seems like too much dwell but it really comes down the pressures and spark energy needed to run the engine best. You'll probably be in the 6.5~7.5 Amp spot so that's only 78~90Amps at idle dropping from there.


It's not just dwell, it's duty cycle. If you're running 4ms dwell on a 5ms cycle--80% duty--you may very well see 10A draw, but that's 12,000 RPM on coil per cylinder. The duty cycle and thus time averaged current draw will be lower at lower RPM... So far it sounds like Mark's pretty hesitant about going over 9,000.
At 1,000 RPM idle, the same 4ms dwell is only 6.7% duty.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:28 pm 
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I have working front brakes and I think the master and pedal ration will be fine. I also have working front wheel speed with a good looking signal on the scope, and I'm nearly to a working clutch. I took a detour to the clutch because I thought I could re-purpose the original rear brake line to the clutch and it seemed to work out pretty well...1 more fitting and the clutch should work.

I was able to re-work the adapter fittings that came with the master cylinders to accept the M10 metric fittings so that made things a bit neater which I like. I was also able to replace the original proportioning valve with a T bolted in the same spot, so again neat.

The rear brakes are going to be more work. I need to make the adapter brackets like I did for the front but I also need to add the new proportioning valve and parking master then run all new lines....lots to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:05 pm 
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TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
I think you've been in the skunk works too long ;)
I can't imagine anything on a car that actually needs 200Hz data. 10Hz can capture momentary wheel spin events.
300ms is 3.3 Hz, but I thought O2's were quicker than that... is that the right number of zeros?

Hey I like working in the dark, harder to see the mistakes :D
Oops, should've double checked that, ~20Hz cross count on zirconia sensors. The lab gear is more sensitive, tend to confuse them up.

TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:

That current number doesn't sound right... also, didn't Testarossas use distributors?

Distributors just distribute the spark to each cylinder. The coils still doing the charge work.
The current draw comes down to 'period of time' instant values will always be lower as no two coils for example would ever be charging at the same time in complete cycle, however depending on cylinder count firing events and RPM there will be overlap. So for instant values it's based on the dwell cycle, but over the complete otto cycle at a given RPM it will be the total of all the coils amperage draw.

TheDarkSideOfWill wrote:
It's not just dwell, it's duty cycle. If you're running 4ms dwell on a 5ms cycle--80% duty--you may very well see 10A draw, but that's 12,000 RPM on coil per cylinder. The duty cycle and thus time averaged current draw will be lower at lower RPM... So far it sounds like Mark's pretty hesitant about going over 9,000.
At 1,000 RPM idle, the same 4ms dwell is only 6.7% duty.


Duty cycle is a function of dwell, but we're splitting hairs here. We also have to account for the 'timing window'. Lets use 3k rpm as a point. So at 3k rpm there is a window of .02 sec per rev. The otto cycle is 720*. using sequential ignition we can use the entire otto cycle - yea! OK so that gets us up to .04 sec or 40ms for 720 degrees. Now lets say we want 30* BTDC timing. 720-30 = 690*. that's 38.3 ms of time left to charge the coil for the next event, however the laws of physics tend to get in the way and we need to account for the time it takes to build and discharge the magnetic field. That's tricky as it's specific to the coil construction and inherent properties. lets use an avg of 4ms. so at 3k rpm there is a window of ~34ms between ignition events for coil on plug sequential. waste spark is ~14ms. This highlights why a single large coil for even one bank can run into charge time saturation problems. Looking at the big old american V8's single coil, 3k rpm with 8 ignition events! poor coil is getting hammered!

Aww he's got to spin it out to the moon, what's the point of all the sensors then :D

Here's a good article covering sample rates and frequencies. The new automotive stuff samples at very high rates and data transfer is also fairly quick too. http://www.dataq.com/blog/faqs/really-n ... mple-rate/

The age of software and computers has made hot rodding very complex and expensive. Race cars are very specific bare bones data, still fairly complex but holds nothing to the daily driver that's a rolling living room. Esp now that integration with wifi, celluar networks and multi-platform comm.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:21 pm 
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Madhatter wrote:

The age of software and computers has made hot rodding very complex and expensive. Race cars are very specific bare bones data, still fairly complex but holds nothing to the daily driver that's a rolling living room. Esp now that integration with wifi, celluar networks and multi-platform comm.


The winning teams have massive data collection. The new motec I bought will do 2000 channels at 1khz each....if you pay for the logging license. Then there is analysis software you buy...and all the sensors and CAN transmitters to get the dat into the ECU......big money in race car data collection!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:23 pm 
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No doubt, my apologies for not being clear. Race teams utilize a staggering amount of data collection, it's just specific to the engine and chassis for obvious reasons. Now layer that with climate control, 'infotainment', EPA smog regulations, anti-theft etc.. and you can see that daily drivers are loaded with so much more.

I got to see some of the mclaren stuff, wow! BIG MONEY, massive amounts of data. I got to thinking, we're at a point where 'drone' racing could take over. The driver skill is getting shaved down little by little, I'm not knocking what they do at all, takes some big brass ball to haul round a circuit like that and huge amounts of talent. It's just with so much computation and servo assist tech now, the driver is a hold over. A fine line is always balanced between safety and tech. If I delve into my 'other' job there are "vehicles" that a human pilot simply cannot survive in due to the operating envelope, the pilot is now remote and even that is changing... didn't hear that from me.. :ugeek:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:30 pm 
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Madhatter wrote:
If I delve into my 'other' job there are "vehicles" that a human pilot simply cannot survive in due to the operating envelope, the pilot is now remote and even that is changing... didn't hear that from me.. :ugeek:


Are you posting from area 51 or something ?!?


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